THE DEMO WAS BEAUTIFUL. THEN IMPLEMENTATION STARTED.

[00:00:02] Yeah, oh yeah. Well, Nyleen and Shannon's sitting there talking about you while you pull up a chair. They're holding it. Hey, welcome back to Credentialing Chronicles. I am Shannon. And I'm Nyleen. And you know, Shannen, one of the biggest questions we get is, how do I know what credentialing software is good for my organization?

[00:00:28] And also, why in the world is buying credentialing software so difficult? Oh, so difficult, Nyleen. That's what everybody says sometimes. And today we're really diving headfirst into this question with our super special guest we're so excited about. Oh, okay. So first let's set the scene for our listeners. Yes. You need some credentialing software. You've interviewed everyone. Yes. And you've gotten some good demos complete. Yes.

[00:00:55] You know, the demonstration, everything is clicking perfectly. Notes are there. Everything looks, one button, one dashboard, one beautiful rapport. And everybody in the room is like, finally, this is going to fix everything. Yes. Then implementation starts. The data doesn't map. The workflow needs like six extra steps. The automation needs a spreadsheet on the side. Honey, everything is just not running itself.

[00:01:21] And suddenly the team that promised you efficiency or you sold efficiency too is working through a nightmare. How many times has that happened to y'all? Because if it has, today we are asking the questions buyers usually learn to ask you all after the contract is signed. And really after that three-year clock that we all know about has already started ticking. Yes.

[00:01:49] And this is not a specific software commercial episode. It is a buyer protection episode. We want MSPs, credentialing leaders, CEOs, IT teams, and procurement departments to know what to demand before they sign anything. Like we have a true industry insider with us today. We're so excited who's willing to talk openly and frankly about what really happens when healthcare organizations purchase their credentialing software.

[00:02:17] Our guest is Matthew Jansenhew Jansen, MPA, President and CEO of Acorn Healthcare Credentialing Solutions. Matt brings more than 20 years of experience to you all, spanning credentialing, medical staffing, services, literally patient access, virtual care, and healthcare technology. His previous leadership experience includes serving as a director within KPMG's government and healthcare life sciences practice.

[00:02:47] Yeah. And under Matt's leadership, Acorn was featured in the 2025 Class Emerging Company Spotlight for its credentialing and enrollment technology. So kudos to you, Matt. And Matt has agreed to step into Credentialing Chronicles and talk honestly about where software companies get it wrong, where clients get it wrong, and what both sides should put in writing to help ensure they get it right. Okay, you guys. So whether you're shopping for a new platform, questioning the one that you already have,

[00:03:16] or getting ready to renew that contract, this conversation is for you. So because once you sign that agreement, you may discover that you are not just committed, you are locked a lot. Matt, welcome to Credentialing Chronicles. Thanks for having me. Matt, thank you so much for taking the time and spending this day with us. Before we get into all the mess, just tell us a little bit about Acorn, who you built it for,

[00:03:44] and what problem you believed to solve for the market. I want to even know how you came up with the name Acorn. Yes. Oh, wow. You guys are getting right into the heart of it all. It's great. Yeah. So Acorn was started with the idea that there was a lot of different solutions in the market.

[00:04:10] There was a lot of different legacy players with a lot of older technology, kind of built through acquisition or highly modularized. And a lot of it was just kind of sitting on the shelf for many, many years without a whole lot of innovation wrapped around it. So we saw an opportunity. So when you think about an acorn, you plant the seed. It grows a great oak tree with many, many, many roots in the ground. So it's really stable.

[00:04:40] And over longer periods of time, it gets bigger and can spread even larger and grow kind of its own forest around itself. So the idea behind Acorn was that. Let's just plant the seed. Let's start working with MSPs at hospitals and providers at different types of specialty groups and really sit down and collectively work together on developing a platform. And that's how Acorn was born.

[00:05:09] Acorn was born through the eyes and through the work of MSPs. And, you know, the solution that you see today has been that work over the past 10 years. Wow, 10 years. Well, let's just get started where the relationship actually begins, right? You mentioned you wanted to start with hospitals and physician groups. So sometimes the hospital goes looking for software. Sometimes the salesperson calls leadership with like the perfect message. We need to reduce the manual work, right?

[00:05:38] We need to improve compliance. This one's clicking 20 times. So when a prospective client first things of taking the leap and using a credentialing software, what information should they gather before they get on the call? And especially before anyone recommends a platform. Nyleen, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We didn't do our disclaimer. Oh, okay. Go ahead. Compliance. Credentialing Chronicle discusses industry experiences,

[00:06:06] reported concerns, and buyer questions for educational purposes. We are not making any universal claims about any vendor, baby, even though you might think it's about you. Okay. Implementation or even clients. Every organization conducts its own due diligence and legal review. Okay. I just wanted to get that in there, Nylee. Oh, good. Good chance. So, Matt, just let us know what do we need to get together? So our MSPs are together. What are we getting together for you? Help us get our checklist together.

[00:06:36] Yeah. So the checklist can be fairly simple to begin with. Really, you want the people who are going to be using the software to have a lot of influence and a lot of weight over the discussion. Like, you know, when you're going through that process, you want somebody from your IT department. You want someone who can run project management for you.

[00:06:56] You want a lot of leadership support and sponsorship because you're going to run into things where you're going to need help along the way to get things kind of pushed through or accepted or reviewed by legal or through compliance or all the different things that go on in the back office of a healthcare system, especially if you're interfacing with other systems and other departments.

[00:07:17] And, you know, when you kind of have that high level, you know, what we call like SWAT team kind of approach where you're ready to really sit down and look at solutions and you have some budget in mind as well. If you're going out shopping without a budget, you know it can happen, right? It can kind of, it can get out of the hand sometimes or, you know, you can. Things get expensive. Things get expensive or your wish list keeps growing, you know, of all the things that you want.

[00:07:45] So, really know what your budget kind of can accept and what kind of you have approvals for leading into this sort of thing because it'll help guide your thoughts and your scope of work. And then on the really granular side, you really, as you get deeper into it, you're going to need somebody to help you with data governance. You're going to need somebody that understands where your data lives today and understands your process from end to end.

[00:08:13] So, you know, everybody from either recruitment, they might not be in the MSP department, but they're part of the process. Your, you know, HR team, someone from HR, someone from your EMR, someone from your rev cycle team, you know, all the different groups, your enrollment teams, your credentialing teams, however you're structured. Because the vendors really need to understand that going into these discussions.

[00:08:38] So, let's talk about really quickly how deeply should the MSO department, the vendor, really look and examine the current workflow, staffing, volume entity, integration. I mean, even the pain points. What are you, should they just bring you all their problems to the meeting? Or, you know, should there just, you know, maybe be a bird's eye view? What do you suggest, Matt? I suggest bring it at all. And then you can go as deep as you want.

[00:09:07] And at least you have it. And that really shows the vendor that you're doing your homework. And it'll either help the vendor show up with the right information and start to plan for the proper demonstration. But it's going to really tell them, like, how serious are you about this? And, you know, how much knowledge are you bringing or wanting to bring to the discussion? Because that steps up the vendor's game.

[00:09:35] You got to, because that's what they respond to. So, then what should or would make a responsible salesperson say, you know what, you're just not ready for the demo yet when they first communicate? Right. Yeah, like, please just go back, do some more. We'll meet next Tuesday, y'all.

[00:10:20] Yeah. Let's just take everybody's time. Before you get everybody's faces in the room and everybody's brains thinking about this, you really want to make sure you have it all kind of sewn up to the best in the best degree that you can. Because everybody's busy. Everybody's got their schedules. And to get a 35, 40 minute demo or an hour, sometimes two hours, three hours. Sometimes these demos can go on for days and weeks depending on how big the company is, right?

[00:10:49] So, you really want to make sure that you're not wasting anybody's time. Because that's what we can't make more of, right? So, that's kind of like the number one, you know, thing I always recommend is if it's okay to say no, it's not time. You know, you're not, you know, if you want to bring these things to the table, it's going to help us make a decision faster, help you get the information you need to make a better decision faster.

[00:11:14] But those are kind of the checklists that I would rely on, you know, from a sales perspective in order to know if my clients are ready to really get into the weeds with this and make a decision. So, how many times, my love, are you sitting at the table with the leadership? They're telling you all of their problems. And then you talk to the credentialing team and it's not exactly what the leadership was saying. And so, now it's kind of like you have to restart the problems over, you know. Do you see that often? Tell me what that looks like.

[00:11:42] I know Naili is like, let's get into the implementation. But I'm really like wondering even the pregame, does that happen where leadership kind of takes over the call? Or is it more from the MSO and the people actually doing the work? Yeah, well, sometimes it's both. But, you know, the executive leadership usually will weigh in on kind of what they're seeing or what they've heard, which is okay. It's part of the process. And you got to kind of understand where they're coming from.

[00:12:08] But the MSPs or the MSO groups, the med staff teams, you know, that's where it kind of lives in the day-to-day. And that's where we get the most, I think, tactical information that we need in order to really help them, you know. And then it helps leadership understand exactly what's going on, you know. Because it may just be that they, you know, have some outdated processes and the technology might not be the issue.

[00:12:33] Or the tech is horrible and it can't meet the current scale or demand of the organization. Or it's both. Or, you know, they're coming off of spreadsheets and they don't know how to use a technology or platform. So there's all these different variables that can kind of weigh into that decision. Of course, you know, executives are always thinking about, you know, how can we do this at, you know, in a more efficient way? And MSPs are like, hey, you know, there's some things we want to change around here.

[00:13:03] If you want to do some things efficiently, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with the software. You know, so you have to kind of let that air out a little bit and be a facilitator of that. You know, I believe you should help facilitate the true uncover those things because they're going to show up. When you start going into implementation, it shows up. That's a really good question. So, Matt, we want to move on and get on to some real tea for our MSPs. And we really want to know, you brought up money.

[00:13:30] And we all know that in the struggling healthcare economy that we are in the things today. Unfortunately, the medical staff office is sometimes looked at as a paper department and not a revenue generating department, which we all know is not true. We are the number one, you know, funnel, right? Where revenue generation even begins. We can't do it without a doctor.

[00:13:52] So, we want to know, not necessarily how things are structured, but our question, our secret little question we always have is, how are software salespeople typically compensated? And can that compensation structure create pressure to close the deal or maybe over promise, over sell, over state things just to, you know, close the deal?

[00:14:19] I mean, not how much they make every pay period, but you know what we're saying. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, some sales structures are different, but, you know, compensation is based on performance, like at any job, right? So, you know, as a sales professional or sales account manager or, you know, a sales leader within an organization or software company, you know, their job is to, you know, sell the software.

[00:14:48] And can they over promise, under deliver? Absolutely. Absolutely. So, there's a lot of things that you have to be in lockstep with in order to understand what that salesperson is actually doing. Are they bringing in their IT department? Are they bringing in the people who've actually sat in the seat and understand the workflows? Have they really listened to you?

[00:15:12] Have they delivered a contract that has all of the deliverables really well orchestrated and mapped out? So, there's no questions. If you give them a blank slate and just say, yes, I want your software, and you take whatever they hand you as the master services agreement or whatever it is, whatever the contract vehicle is, without truly, you know, baking in those points, then the salesperson, you made it really easy for them.

[00:15:38] And they're not earning their paycheck, you know, if they're doing that. So, the MSO with all the notes is a good thing. So, the OCD, the OCD, you guys. Yes. My quick question is, how important to you as a software developer, and I think this is true for any industry, not just credentialing, but credentialing is such a niche industry. But this could definitely fall under any software.

[00:16:06] How important is it for your salesperson to be aware and know and be confident and speak to and have knowledge of what the end user needs? And do you make that a priority in your company? Absolutely. It's the top priority. You know, the development of our software is through the eyes and the work of not only our clients and our users, but also our team.

[00:16:29] You know, our team is made up of credentialing specialists who've been in the industry for collectively, you know, over 100 and something years. I lose track of, you know, most of them have spent at least 10 to 12 years in the seat in some capacity, whether they've run CVOs or run national CVOs or run, you know, the software within the CVO or the data and analytics pieces.

[00:16:52] So we bring people, it's really important that you're talking to industry experts that are also familiar with the product because that way they can help you to really map where you are today to where you will be in the future using that product because it's going to change how you do things. And a lot of people think that because I'm getting a new product, I can continue to do what I was always doing. And it's really not how it works.

[00:17:16] Every software is built a little differently, even though the workflows are somewhat interchangeable because you guys got to be able to pivot because you guys pivot every, you know, every day on everything. So it has to be a platform that can take action. And only people that understand that are the people who have sat in the seat. And I can tell you this is our number one frustration. Number one frustration. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm looking when we're thinking of that. Right. So what are some of the warning signs? Right.

[00:17:46] That the person maybe and not speaking of acorn, I understand that you guys have 55,000 years of experience. I get that. But demonstrating the person you have a software, they're doing a demo. What should be some of those signs that the MSO is saying this person, you know, maybe understands the technology, but they really don't understand how credentialing. Right. What I'm doing. You know, how does the MSO kind of make that distinction?

[00:18:13] Well, if they put you through a canned kind of, you know, demo of the product, like they're not able to really go, you know, several, maybe three or four more layers into the product itself because they don't really understand what you do. So usually you have to throw the questions in. You got to be able to kind of take the demo by the reins, you know, and say, listen, I want to see this. And if it's set up properly, you come with your questions.

[00:18:40] You come with the gotchas, you know, because that's the only way you're really going to find out if the product can really do and do what you need it to do. It can do a lot of things, obviously. It wouldn't be here if it couldn't. But it may not be the right size for your organization because every product's built with a little different lens and a little different use case built around it. And even their client base may be different than what you do, but they're trying to fit you into that box.

[00:19:07] So you got to be really kind of on your game when you're coming to that demo, not to be like, you know, I want to, you know, I'm going to throw you off your script and I want to get you kind of in my mind and doing what I want you to do. But, you know, take the time and say, you know, do we want to do questions before or during or after? So, you know, kind of how to guide and how to insert yourself into the demo, into the conversation, because you want to sometimes record these things if they're allowed.

[00:19:34] Not everybody records demos, but if they're allowed, you know, you can socialize it a little bit more and then come back with better questions next time. And really hold the line. Sorry, Nyleen, but really hold the line too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And but you've got to know your work process and your pain points. And of course you do. And a lot of times when you're on the call with someone, you forget them all, you know, you know, or you just can't remember every single thing because it's a lot, right? It is. It's a lot.

[00:20:03] Products in this space are very, very, very deep and wide when it comes to, you know, all the different things that go on into the credentialing enrollment spaces or what we like to call provider readiness. Yeah. So you can't get to everything in 45 minutes. So you really want to, you know, take your time and get a second, maybe even third look at it just so that it can be what, you know, the choice that you really want. And you've asked the questions. You've thoroughly put it through the process.

[00:20:31] And not every vendor will allow you to do that. So quick summary of what we just talked about. Get the right people at the table. Right. Ask the right questions. Right, Shannon. Ask the right question. And get ready. Mm-hmm. Well, I would say too, like Matt said, right, make sure that you have questions lined up. So is this going to do my rosters? How are you monitoring my people? Right? Can I pull their information? What if you need to map something? Are you going to charge me?

[00:21:00] You guys need to think about all those questions. Because if the people start saying no, yes, no, yes, like Matt says, record your demo. And you can say, but you told me this. And then you can kind of make sure that you're working it to the system that you're needing. Okay. Exactly. Good point, Shannon. So, all right. We've made it to the demo. We've talked about prep. We're there. Demos are designed really to show the cleanest path, right? Y'all have created the databases to show us how they work ideally.

[00:21:29] But credentialing is rarely clean. In the cleanest path, we have multiple entities. We have delegated agreements. We have oddball players. We have six facilities with six different types of delineation of privileges. We have rosters that need specialization because there are certain dates. We've got flu, right? Declinations versus acceptances versus done elsewhere rosters that have to be sent out. All of that. All of that. In the pot. All of those things. Tap in if you guys have any of those issues.

[00:21:58] Please comment and share. I know. So, why can the system shown during sales feel completely different during now implementation? Now, we bought the software. We got the software. You showed us how beautiful it is. And now it's like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to that prep. You know, when you're going through the demo process.

[00:22:19] If you're able to get a slice of your information or your data and get it into the system so you can see it living and breathing within the platform itself, that's always the best. But it's sometimes not easy to share data, especially in healthcare. It's just, you know, it's not easy unless you're under contract or under, you know, 17 layers of red tape. So, you know, what we try to do is set it up the best we can so you can see it. But it is a controlled demo for the most part.

[00:22:48] So, seeing kind of what it's like with all of your information. Now, to your point, getting into a new system, you don't always get the – you have to take some time to clean up and organize, maybe even reorganize some of your data governance structure, your data processes. All those factors that come in. What are you getting from recruitment? What are you getting from HR? What are you giving to HR?

[00:23:14] You have to really understand and help the vendor understand those things so that they can draw that out and they can put it in writing that here's what we're going to do. And they build that into the plan so that when you're going through implementation, you can see those things at certain times. So, you may have to make some pivots and adjustments in your standard operating procedures. You want it to align with your, you know, your crediting bodies, your, you know, your JCOs, your URACs, your, you know, NCQAs, all the things, right?

[00:23:44] So, you – and especially when it comes to payers. There's all kinds of things when it comes to rosters. Rosters are – Tell me about it. Rosters are just – The pain of all of our existences. Yeah, and ours too, you know. Yeah. But we're finding better ways to – Thousands of lines. Yeah. Yeah. And we're finding better ways to manage that using, you know, some of the newer technology and some of the newer tools because it is more just logic-based.

[00:24:09] And instead of us, you know, trying to do it manually, you really want to build a way to map those things appropriately because they will change what, like – some rosters change almost monthly. Some of them change quarterly. Some of them change annually depending on the payer. I mean, even the payer changes. Even the payer changes. Yeah. The payer changes all the time. You know, the team comes in and buys them. So, now, you know, you have to ask, like, hey, how do I rename this plan in my system because I don't want to call it this anymore.

[00:24:38] I want it to be reflected correctly so that my billing front office person, you know, knows what to do. I mean, so really, you know, like Matt was saying, you really have – and Nylee was saying you have to think of the whole entire scope and, you know, what is it? Life cycle of the provider and where your credentialing software can kind of help or not help, right? Right.

[00:25:00] And you've got to build a schedule the best you can, a schedule so you can give the vendor enough time and you enough time to actually make those kind of pivots. Even though they sometimes happen in real time, you almost want to just put, you know, mile markers in the road, you know, for your annuals with your vendors. Can you give us an example like that?

[00:25:49] Yeah. That happens. Yes, yes, yes.

[00:26:15] So we know there could be some lag there, but, you know, we try to get in front of that as best you can and have monthly tech reviews so that you can go through some of the challenges that you may be having. And it may be that maybe the feature and function is there. It's just you haven't been – you know, it's a pretty big system. Maybe you just need a little training. Well, maybe we need to build something. Wow. Maybe we need to put some more functionality in there. You know, that's sort of thing. For sure. For sure, Matt.

[00:26:44] So before we get into the contracting, let's just do a brief summary of this little section. Basically, you want to require a scenario-based proof of capability. You want a written assumptions log. You want to ensure you have a list of separating functionalities and understand what you need versus what they need and that the communication is happening. Configuration. Talk about whatever customization you particularly need for your organization, your type of whatever. Look at the integration. Look at your future roadmap.

[00:27:13] And I love that you said ensure you have that quarterly business review at a minimum with your software implementation team, right, or leader or whatever. And then quick question to second answer. How long do you usually dedicate that project implementation team? Is it six months? Is it a year? Or is it that full three-year initial term usually?

[00:27:39] What you want to do is make sure that someone's with you that knows the history. You know, there's turnover in some organizations and they can't help that all the time. But, you know, you want to make sure there's a historical record at least and there's a handoff. So as you're going through, you might have a different implementation team because they have a different level of specialty when it comes to data and configuration and all the things, the more technical stuff that go on.

[00:28:08] And say your ongoing support person may be someone who knows credentialing and can help you to take action within the system on some of the needs and can better define what your challenges are to the IT team so that you're not having to translate to a technical specialist. You can really just let that person do it. But that person should be along for the ride the whole time.

[00:28:34] You know, like I said, the seat might change a couple times, you know, depending on the nature of the organization or the growth or whatever. But I think making sure that you have some historical way of looking back at what, you know, what you've been working on and what you've been working towards so that you're not having to start over every month with someone different. Well, I have a question. So have you ever heard of like a written demo assumptions document?

[00:29:04] Yeah. Yeah. Is that something that is used often on the sales side? You know, some people have talked about that and when we were gathering some due diligence for this. And so, you know, is that an important document? Did everybody kind of look into that? What do you think about that? Absolutely. You know, we call it discovery, right? So we use kind of like a discovery tool. Okay, not law and order here. Okay, Matt. We call it a disco, actually. It's like a disco, right?

[00:29:32] So we kind of use the term disco. Because we want to, so we send you a kind of a pre, you know, interview of what you're looking for, some specific questions that help us, you know, outline the demo or help us outline the, you know, the structure of the, just the, even the discovery session where we're just talking. So you have some way to collectively get people to weigh in on stuff before we show up and just start peppering everybody with questions and expect everybody to have all the answers.

[00:30:01] So, you know, we, you know, I hate, I use the term never show up to find out. So I always ask for an agenda. I always ask for what, you know, what's this really going to be? You know, who am I here to talk to? You know, whether it changes a little bit or at least I have 80% of most of what we're going to talk about kind of prepared prior to going into those discussions just so that we can have a, you know, efficient and productive meeting. I mean, that's what you want. That's what you'd ask for in any meeting.

[00:30:27] But, you know, sometimes these things can go depending on who's there and, you know, the personalities and all the things start happening and you got to really be able to facilitate that. So having an agenda item where people have weighed in and they know what to expect when they show up is usually the easiest way to kind of get going as fast as you can with a small group or even a larger group. Nyleen, are we signing the contract or are we not signing the contract? Where are we at?

[00:30:53] Oh, we're about to sign the contract, Shannon, and I know you all about the details. Well, I was wondering, you know, because that's like the part that I think a lot of people underestimate is the contract. You know, a lot of them come in with multiple multi-year agreements. You know, they're very common and vendors may be making, you know, we understand substantial investment in implementation, configuration, you know, staffing, integration, all of that.

[00:31:19] But at the same time, buyers may be committing before they have seen how the platform performs inside their actual world. What do you think about that, Matt? You know, a multi-year agreements and what protection should kind of exist for the vendor, for the buyer so that, you know, no one's carrying all the risk. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:31:43] I mean, I think, you know, we, I would think that you'd want to make sure there are specific milestones called out, you know, within the contract. Okay. Because that protects everybody. It protects you. It protects the vendor. If you're not meeting them, there should be one, a very strong project management team that's going here. It should not be a surprise to anybody that we're not hitting a milestone, but there should be a very good reason. Or if the vendor just can't get it done.

[00:32:13] And so you should have a way to, based on performance, exit that agreement, you know, as long as it's, you know, been documented properly. Because what you don't want to do is, you know, not just have a, well, we decided to go a different direction. And then the vendor's kind of like, ouch, you know, you know, that's, we met all the milestones and then it becomes kind of an argument of who did what, when and where. So you want to make sure that everybody's being held accountable throughout that process.

[00:32:40] So the multi-year contracts are still there, but you, you, you can navigate around them a little bit. That's a good thing. I mean, can you understand, can you help us understand, like, what does the vendor invest up front? Just so that the MSP community kind of understands that. That's a good question. Yeah. We want to know, because that's not our world. And I think it's important for them to understand why it costs what it costs. So what are some of the things y'all spend money on that we don't even know about? Yeah. So, you know, one, there's the software itself.

[00:33:09] The software it costs, you know, you think of it, a lot of people think of the licensing agreement or the license per physician or the, however it's structured is kind of what you're paying for. Kind of like a Netflix subscription, you know, for $4.99 a month, I'm going to get access to all this stuff. That's part of it. What we do with, like, some of the additional costs, things like that. If there's training, if there's additional team members that have to come on and things like that for implementation.

[00:33:38] And IT, right? So you've requested some specific IT support during, like, an implementation for some of the customizations that you want. Those types of things kind of get outside of, like, a general scope of, say, just a license of the software. Because if you just want a license to the software with some training, it comes along with it.

[00:33:59] But if you want some additional kind of, you know, support and some additional kind of customizations within the software for you specifically that you've called out, that's when it, you know, it gets a little bit outside the traditional scope of what the vendor has probably planned for.

[00:34:16] So when they're scoping out your engagement and they're scoping out the amount of time it's going to take you to probably get to go live and all that should be straightforward and shared and everybody should agree on it, they're planning for a runway before they start probably charging you for those licenses. So there's a whole maybe three, four months that goes into work before you even get a license. A people. The transition, yeah. Yeah, and the transition before you even get to using the license.

[00:34:46] So, you know, it's kind of like, you know, there's different ways to approach that with the vendor. But I think, you know, the more you have spelled out, the better. And you also mentioned cloud storage, right? Because now all of our databases are cloud-based.

[00:35:04] And same way that we have to pay for our Google Drives or our iClouds or whatever, we have to pay for, or you as a software have to pay for the storage of our documents to be stored, housed. And then, of course, the cybersecurity. Encrypted in a cloud with a halo. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that should, you know, and your licensing fee, you know, that's where those costs are associated with, you know, turning on the lights, right?

[00:35:33] So, you know, there's a lot of machines doing a lot of work, you know, when you're actively using a software platform. And that's like turning the power on in your house. So, you know, if you have the power off and nobody's using it, then you won't get charged. But as soon as you turn that power on, you know, everybody starts to incur costs. And, yes, you have to have certain certifications these days and SOC to agreements with different cybersecurity insurance programs.

[00:35:59] All the things kind of lump into kind of your overall costs that are associated with those licenses. So, the more complex systems, the ones that are kind of underneath the, say, IP or the, you know, individual protection or things like that within healthcare. You know, there's a lot of weight that comes with hosting that information, especially in a cloud. You know, cloud is a little bit cheaper because you're sharing that house with a lot of others.

[00:36:28] That's how we can make it more affordable. And you can get better features faster when it's cloud-based. If it's an on-prem solution, that's your own house. You've got to, you know, renovate it. You've got to customize it. You've got to pay your own electricity bills on it. And not everybody has that infrastructure to do that. You think that's funny? That won't come. Okay, so really some tea we need, okay? In case y'all was getting bored, we've got to get it lively.

[00:36:54] So, when a platform, again, not Acorns platform, just saying there's a lot of people out there, repeatedly fails to meet documented requirements. Because remember you were saying, put those milestones in there. Service commitments, security, right? You know, things aren't downloadable. You know, all of those things that kind of go wrong. What remedies should the parties consider? You know, when is it considered a material failure? Like, you know what? This really should not be for you. We need to just go on and back out.

[00:37:21] Like, at what point does the MSO, the leadership on that side, understand? Like, maybe this software isn't for us, even though they did promise us a big package. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'd say within the first year, you know, you really need to get into a software and start using it before you make some of those decisions.

[00:37:42] Depending on how fast you get into those systems, how fast your transition, how well adaptable and adoptable your teams are, and how well the vendors are responding, the software companies responding to those SLAs, those service level agreements. All that should be tracked and managed and monitored. So, you like, have to walk in the mud before you can tell if it's mud or quicksand, right? Yeah, I guess that's one way of putting it.

[00:38:12] I mean, you don't know, right? You have to learn to swim across the lake before, you know, before you jump in, too. So, it's one of those things where make sure that you have the proper training and you have the proper support in order to make it across the lake. Yeah, if you're walking in the mud and that's the kind of way you feel, then that might be a sign, too. Okay.

[00:38:31] And so, just really quick as a thing about that is, too, is so how negotiable are truly are these contracts or these set termination dates or these auto renewals? Like, how negotiable are they really? Yes, can somebody call Matt and say, Matt, look, I'm just not happy the way they did this, Matt. Like, help me. Right. Are you going to be like, okay, let's do a meeting. Let's talk this through. You know, like, what is the… Or are you just going to be, right, are you just going to say,

[00:39:01] too bad, you sign a contract, there's no negotiation. I mean, really. Absolutely not. No, we have to have those conversations. If we're not having those conversations with our clients, then we're not really working with them or for them. We're just kind of, you know, doing our thing. We're, you know, depends on the size of the company, too, and the depth of that company and how much they really pay attention to credentialing.

[00:39:29] Or whether they're even based out of this country or not. Because let me tell you, I've got some terror experiences with some software companies. And, oh, I had to pay those three years. Boy, did they remind me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where on the front end, you want to be really prescriptive. You know, I always say, let's be prescriptive. Let's kind of know what… Look at your past experiences. You've learned from those things, right? Bring those to the table and be open about those things.

[00:39:59] Because the more you're open about those things, the better we can address them in the contract. So, Nyleen, you really have to paraphrase that, right? Like record, document your milestones. What else did Matt say? Because you've been paraphrasing for us. Make sure you have your termination. Yes. Make sure you have your termination triggers. You have your limits on fees. I think also, Matt, another thing maybe we didn't touch on, but definitely review that contract. Look at the terms. Look at the definitions. Look at the auto renewals.

[00:40:28] Make sure you have that transition support. You have any export import costs delineated on there. Mapping costs. Mapping. And then the accessibility of termination and that termination clause overall. Absolutely. You captured kind of like 99% of what you should be. You know, there's always going to be something in there that you want to, you know, maybe think through. But you don't want to make it so…

[00:40:54] You don't want the contract to be so customizable that you can't get it through your own procurement office. You can't be like Matt is going to wear purple to the next three meetings, you guys. You guys cannot write that in the contract. Okay. Come on. That's too much. You can absolutely write that in the contract. Hey, Matt likes purple. Matt will have me a whole live oak forest in five years. You cannot write that in there. Okay. Come on, guys. Okay. All right.

[00:41:24] Shannon, so let's talk about implementation. Take us to implementation. What's your take on that? Okay. Okay. So I guess we are signing the contract. We're going to get in that multiple year agreement contract. So should a prospective client really, you know, really ask again, I guess just really sealing this up in writing based on the client's particular invitation and operational risk. So you're saying, yes, make sure all of that, any kind of risk are there in writing.

[00:41:54] Correct. You're going to get into that agreement. You're going to want everything in writing. Okay. Okay. So just wanted to make sure because, you know, a lot of people are kind of always leery to kind of write all of that stuff down and stuff. So, you know, just want to make sure. So here is where everyone starts pointing, right? The vendor says that the client did not provide clean data or even make decisions. And the client says that the vendor oversold the product and underestimated the work.

[00:42:21] Meanwhile, the medical staff office team is still maintaining two systems and a spreadsheet. So really when we're looking at it, Matt, who is responsible when implementation fails? The software company or the credentialing department or maybe even executive leadership? Or do all of them kind of have a hand in it? What do you think? I usually go with we all have a hand in it to some degree. It's not one more than the other sometimes.

[00:42:48] Sometimes it's equally spread across the entire, you know, relationship and partnership within that organization. Okay. I have a question. There's only – yeah. I have a question. So what are the top three client-side behaviors that really derail implementation when you feel like you've gotten past it? But then you start seeing some of these behaviors on the client side. Right. Because we all know as MSPs what the failures are on the software side. We know that. What do you as the software see us – what you're doing wrong?

[00:43:17] Give us a mirror. We need a mirror. Yeah. Well, it usually comes down to data, right? For us, you know, we live and breathe off of the data because that's kind of the lifeblood of our software. It's what makes it run, you know? So if the data is corrupted or it's not a good clean version, you're going to see that right away in any software. As soon as you put it in, basically it's going to show up.

[00:43:46] It's going to show you the gaps and things. It's going to show you where you, you know, maybe had a naming convention go south and you had 15 other different things over here doing it. You know, you did it two years ago this way. Now you're doing it this way. So all that starts to really show up. But if you're really taking it through the process, none of that information should ever hit production, live production, without being validated by you.

[00:44:10] So really taking that time and making sure that you have a team that can help you validate not every inch of that because some organizations are just too big to, but you really have to understand how to validate the information and the configuration of your system. So really that's where we see some of the shift, right? So people start showing up with different versions of the data, different requests from different departments are saying, hey, can we push this in there? Can we pull this from there? Can we do these things?

[00:44:41] Once they see something new that could potentially help them. So that always sends off our spidey sense. We're always like, oh no, you know, it's, it's a good problem to have, but it's also, it can be very distracting to the MSO. It can be very subtract, you know, just distracting in general to everybody because the vendor wants to say yes. Yes, we can do that. But, you know, we can build rocket ships to Mars too with enough resources and money, but we don't have that in this, in this, in this current agreement. So if everybody starts to weigh in, we start to see it going.

[00:45:11] Not as in your current agreement. That's so funny. We don't have an agreement to build the rocket ship today, but tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. You want to renegotiate? We can renegotiate. If you want enrollment to do this, or if you want your, your HR team to, you know, import certain data from their system or export data out, or you have their recruitment team. So you have this ecosystem around your provider readiness, so you can get them ready for clinics. They're ready to see patients. All those things have to be orchestrated properly.

[00:45:41] And if, if they're not involved in the, you know, somewhat of the discussion, they don't have to be involved in everything. But if they're not involved and we find out halfway through that this new part of the organization needs this information or has lived off this information, we just forgot to bring it up. Or we just didn't think we were going to have to deal with them again. You know, we hear all the different things. That's when the, the, the red flag start to be sound for us.

[00:46:06] We start to see like, okay, this project's getting a little bit out of scope than where we originally started. And that's where it kind of can get, you know, you have to try to keep it out of the ditch, you know? So you really have to set up those parameters. You really want to make sure that, you know, the team understands that this is, there's our out of scope bucket over here. These are all the things we agreed on. And these are the things we'll have to talk about, you know? Maybe we don't have to renegotiate. Maybe we can make it through it, you know?

[00:46:34] And we can get it done, but don't, but that impacts everything. Timelines, milestones, you start piling on things. Or the vendor starts saying, oh, you know, we're doing something different now than what we were doing when we sold you the product. We have this new product that we're going to be launching in Q2. We're just going to put you on that. Like, I've heard stories of that. So, you know, that can happen. You know, it's, you know, it can happen. That's totally understandable. So, okay.

[00:47:03] So basically it's all of our faults. We all have a little bit of part of it. We got it. But don't evaluate your credentialing technology in isolation. You are just as much as the software guy. Sometimes we need to be responsible for our own problems. Nylee, I'm going to say comment below if you are the drama. That is saying sometimes we are the drama. Okay. Exactly. All right. So let's talk about what the word that everybody loves, which is automation. Automation should not automatically mean eliminating people.

[00:47:33] Because we all know we are not replaceable. Our spidey sense, our gut feeling is not something AI can replace. The better question is whether technology makes us work faster, safer, more consistent, easier for the people responsible for completing it. Right? Yeah. I mean, Nylee, you're not lying. Sometimes a company describes a process as automated because the system sends an email. Right? How many times do we hear that? Or it even creates a task.

[00:47:58] But a human, you all, still has to retrieve the response, review it, rename the document, verify the information, upload it, index it, update another system. I mean, are you guys doing any of this information process or is it just me and Nylee that do it every day? Because one automated action surrounded by seven manual steps, my love, is not end-to-end automation. Right. I mean, Matt, what are you thinking about this?

[00:48:23] When a vendor describes a feature as automated, what should buyers ask to really understand exactly where the automation begins, where it ends, and what work still needs to be done on the back end by their staff, my love? Yeah. I mean, that's part of that process. So you understand kind of, automation doesn't mean it does it for you. Right? Human in a loop is required based on accreditation standards. NCQA, you know, human in a loop, you've got, they don't allow for machines.

[00:48:53] In a loop. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Validation doesn't happen by machines. Machines can go do stuff. It can go grab a license for you. It can pull things in, but you have to show the audit that says that this MSP actually looked at that license and validated it. Not a machine looked at it and said it was good, you know, because that's not what's going to get you through your audit. You know, so that, and if you want NCQA accreditation, so you have, you know, abilities to do things with payers or payers, you know, do this too.

[00:49:23] When you hand that information over to them, they're running a similar type of process on their end, just like they have their own MSP department over there. That's cross checking everything that you did from those primary sources. So if you're getting it from a data broker, that's using a different primary source, or you're getting it from a, from not the primary source that will come out. It will show. So when you're setting up automation, like, you know, alerts or reminders or a workflow

[00:49:49] within, you know, creating a document or filling out a document machines can be, can get all over that stuff. And even AI is being, is driving some of this, but AI should not be, AI should not be, should not be touching your data in ways that aren't allowed within every organization's treating AI a little bit differently. We're very sensitive to that. We're using our own language learning models, different types of, you know, semantic versus

[00:50:16] agentic AI to do different things within the system. And we're, but that also costs more money. So, you know, it's not cheaper to do some of this work now at scale, at scale it is, but you have to make sure that your workflows allow for that. And the credentialing bodies or the crediting bodies allow for those things. Cause you know, they'll throw out a, a ruling in July and they'll change that ruling because they went back and saw an audit.

[00:50:43] And so far we've seen AI being incorporated as a new, um, section in all of our accreditation manuals. So for all the MSPs out there, make sure you're checking your updated most current versions of your, uh, manuals. Particularly, I just went through a big overhaul with triple H C. So these are big sections being added to AI, uh, regarding AI. So that also has to be taken into account when we're using softwares that use AI.

[00:51:12] So let's talk a little bit about AI because I'm sure that AI is being used somehow, some way about data migration. When we want to move now we have established, uh, credentialing softwares. We found another one that's a lot more practical and useful and Hey, we want to move because I can't spend a million. Maybe I can spend 600,000 next year. So I need a data migration. So really quickly, uh, why do credentialing data migrations become such a nightmare and

[00:51:40] what information is most commonly lost or flattened? Can, can I say one thing about automation though? I'm sorry. Yeah. Because I think it's very important for everybody to realize that, you know, the credentialing software makes us more efficient, but again, like, you know, the human in the loop, right? It's not going to do everything for you. We don't want it to, but you want to use it in a way that again, like we talk about cred culture, you, you're able to show your data.

[00:52:10] You're able to show how quick your team is. You're able to show how efficient your team is. And those are all great things, but we don't want something where the human in the loop is becoming lazy. Sorry to say it because they're depending on the system to do so much for them when it's really that system is there to make your office and your processes more efficient. I mean, Matt, do you agree with that? Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:52:35] I mean, that's the game is, is, you know, developing more time because there's always going to be the scenarios where you have to pick up the phone and talk to a provider or talk to, you know, someone within the system that takes you away from say your day-to-day, you know, work and the, and the things that have to continuously be going on in the background. So instead of you having to go out to, you know, 150 sites to, to grab different state license boards, you know, put automation to go do that for you.

[00:53:02] And then you have, you know, then you flag the ones that come back, you know, the, and that, so that's, that saves you time. So incrementally, you really have to understand where you are today and like, what is, how, what are your metrics? What are your KPIs around your operation and your deployment of your team? So if you don't have that, that's okay. We can, you can help, you can help develop those things so that you have something to show to the executive team that you are accelerating opportunities with revenue.

[00:53:29] You're not having the bottlenecks with, you know, bench time and some of the other things that pop up or from recruitment to, to clinic. You want to know, you want, you want to shrink that time down by a specific amount in the first quarter after you go live. So you have specific things that you can aim at. So you can defend even your claim, hold, denial bucket over in RevCycle. They're throwing at you all the time saying, what's wrong? What's, what's wrong with the data? What's wrong with the data? Right. And what's wrong with this? Why can't we keep up with these things?

[00:53:58] Recreds are coming up and splashes, all the things that happen. But even going back to what Nyleen was saying about data migration, data is king. Like you said, Matt, right? So that data migration needs to be on point for, for it to be able to give you all that good data. Right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, that is 90% of your implementation. Um, the, you know, maybe 80%, but I'd say at least 90% from, for most of our clients.

[00:54:25] And depending on if you're coming from an old legacy system or you're coming from spreadsheets or somewhere in between a mix, you know, the Frankenstein model where you got a little bit of everything, uh, or you've used, you know, six other systems over the past 20 years, or you've used the same system for 20 years. You know, we've seen it all. So you, you, you, there's a, there's a strategy that you want to deploy and not everybody is the same. So you can, you need to kind of show up with people who've been there and can help you

[00:54:52] understand the mile, the, the challenges you're going to have, you know, with that system, getting data out of it or back into it, whatever it is. Right. What would, is there a sample size or reconciliation standard that you, that you love, that you require before acceptance that you think is helpful to the organization? And I guess it would matter if there's 10 doctors or if there's a thousand doctors, right? I mean that, you know, I take it that into perspective. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:22] I mean, I always like to use the 10% rule if we can get it, you know, um, if we can get 10% of a slice of your information, that'll pretty much cover everything. We're not everything, but the majority of the things we're going to run into and will help you to, to see kind of that initial mapping of what's what, what to look forward and what we can fix. Right. And then make some decisions because you may not want some of that information to come over. I was just going to get to that because not everything is migratable. Correct.

[00:55:52] Right. Yeah. It's got a different name. somewhere. Um, and have it for reference if you need it. Files are a big thing. You know, the, the, the files, cause you can have millions and millions and millions of files and all the different formats, all the different naming conventions and, and no organization to them.

[00:56:22] So there's a lot of times when the data is one piece of it, you have this whole file loading that has to go along with it. So you have a historical record when you, of things, you know, over time. And a lot of those things come in various shapes and sizes. So that strategy in and of itself is a big part of the decisions that you're going to have to make. So I understand what you're saying, Matt, but what do you think Nylee? Cause if migration isn't complete, the buyer should not be forced to accept the system, right? Just because a calendar date arrived.

[00:56:51] What do you think, Matt? No, I think you, you have to change your, your, your, your plan at that point. If you know, you're not going to be able to, yeah, you got to readjust, you know, the expectation, you know, that, Hey, you know, we thought we were going to have this, but with the data quality and the information that you guys want to put in, here's what you're going to have. And then you move on from there. Cause if you're pulling it off of PDFs, that that's more time. I mean, you know, there, you know, the bigger, the obstacle, the bigger, the time, you

[00:57:21] know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we still run into people in clients, health systems that are on paper, you know, I mean, literally on paper or digital paper, you know, well, Matt, thank you so much. It's been so amazing. What we want to do is we want to go into, we've, we've done the whole life cycle, right? We've vetted, we've demoed, we've implemented, we've migrated.

[00:57:48] But what we want to do is we want to do a quick lightning round with you. Short answers, no sales language down nitty gritty so that our MSPs have full takeaway as to what they can expect and what's the key points we need to bring back. So quick and fast. Let's see, Matt. Best sign of vendor understands credentialing. They ask you about your exceptions before they show you the dashboards.

[00:58:18] Okay. Okay. I like it. I like it. Favorite season, Matt. Are we talking spring, fall, winter? What's your favorite season? I'm a, I'm a fall guy. Okay. It's coming up. Okay. Yeah. Wait. What's your biggest red flag in a demo? For the vendor or for the MSP? Ooh, let's say. Both. What do you think? I mean, we need it all. We need it all, Matt. Yeah.

[00:58:48] We need it. Give it us. Okay. If the, well, the vendor says that's configurable without giving you a cost or a timeline and building it into. Do y'all hear him? Y'all better listen to Matt. Yeah. Yeah. And if, if a vendor from a vendor perspective, I could, there's all kinds of red flags, but we talked about a little, some of those earlier, but I think from a MSP standpoint, you definitely want to look into that configurability. Okay. Okay.

[00:59:15] Are you an ice cream guy or are you a pie cake kind of guy? I'm an ice cream guy. Okay. Period. Period. All right. Most dangerous words in a proposal. Ooh. Ooh. Most clients say sign the sign in three years. Most clients sign in three years.

[00:59:41] I think that's something that if you hear that contract, someone's explained to you a contract without, you know, really getting into those renewal dates, really understanding kind of what's on the hook within each of those milestones. I think that's, those are always the, the words that if, if those aren't baked in there, um, it'll come back to haunt everybody, the vendor and the MSP. Yeah. Nyleen's big on that too. She's like, if they say that we're always doing it or it's always been done, then you

[01:00:11] need to fight them tooth and nail. So I'm like, that's a good one. Pretty much. Okay. Are you a cardigan type guy or are you like, put me a bomber? You know, it's cold outside. What are you, what are you pulling first? I'm a hoodie guy. Ooh, hoodie guy. We didn't even have that as an option. Okay. Love that. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[01:00:33] So what, what is the one principle acorn is willing to be judged by in every client relationship? That you have a personal relationship with us, that you know, our name, you know, my name, you know, every one of our clients should know me at some point, you know, in some part of their organization should know not everybody in every organization, but should know the team. Matthew Jansen said everybody in the world should just know him.

[01:01:03] Okay. I mean, so many people have my phone number. It's on, I'm getting text messages while we're here. I'm, you know, it's like people call me, you know? Yeah. They want to meet up. They got to negotiate that contract, Matt. Yeah. Okay. So anything that we missed, like I just, the craziest thing that you can think of that we might've missed that you kind of hear and that you wanted to talk about, you know?

[01:01:28] Yeah, I think, you know, there is a large movement in the AI space. I know we're all worried about things and, you know, there's some sensitivity around automation and how, and data and, you know, how safe everything is anymore. I think we really have to be careful with, with what we're doing and what we're planning on doing and what we're deploying. You know, have an understanding with your vendors.

[01:01:56] They're not going to give you everything of their roadmap of where they're going technically right out of the gate, but you can see what they've already deployed and how they're deploying it and what those models are built on or what they're built around. There are new AI security assessments that are, that are being required so that you can explain that to your, your compliance teams because they're going to have all those questions. You know, I really think that's another, you know, layer of this that we're just now starting to set sell into.

[01:02:26] In an environment like healthcare where things have been adopted sometimes very slowly compared to the, to the mainstream or sometimes maybe too fast. You know, when you think about what's going on in the surgery field of, uh, with, uh, with robotics now, and you see what's happening in the back office and you're like, well, we're doing, we're doing laser surgery up here, but we're still running stuff off spreadsheets in the back office.

[01:02:53] It's like, you know, where I see the most innovation in healthcare and where we, I think we can do some of the, the real work is in the, you know, the office that, that really helps us run our businesses, our health systems, keep our patients safe, keep our doctors happy. And which is if you can do that, you know, those types of things, but, um, no, I love the doctors and they, they, you know, they need to practice medicine, not practice administration. But this is not an administrative task.

[01:03:21] You know, that's the other thing is I don't want people to think credentialing is an administrative task. No, it is. It is the tip of the spear when it comes to a healthcare organization. Cause if something goes wrong at any, any part of that, that provider readiness spectrum, then, you know, it ripples through the whole organization. So the tighter your teams are, the more depth and breadth you have around the leadership and their knowledge of what you, what they're, what is going on in the industry, the better.

[01:03:48] And I've seen some of the best teams and I've seen some of the teams that are trying to grow into their, their, their, their growth. And I've seen teams that have been acquired and had to move on. I've seen, I've seen all those things happen and there's usually a wake behind them, no matter what's going on, good or bad. There's usually a wake that you have to deal with. No, we really thank you for your honesty because like we talked when we were trying to land this interview with you, um, a lot of people are not willing to sit down and kind of really

[01:04:18] talk about the things that we've talked about today. So I really want to ask you one last thing and then I link and close us out. But if everyone remembers one thing from our show today, Matt, what would that be? You know, two sentences like quick in their mind, you know, everybody's in a TikTok culture. Yeah. Um, do the planning, do the planning, make sure that your contracts are what you want and make

[01:04:46] sure that your team is ready for change. Cause if they're not ready for change, they're never going to be ready for change. So you really got to build that culture. Is your team ready for change y'all comment below? We need to know. I love that Matt. So anyway, to every buyer listening, do not buy the prettiest demo. Okay. By the clearest commitment, by the, by the, um, the, the one who is willing to work with

[01:05:15] you, not against you. And if it matters, it belongs in the contract, the implementation plan or the acceptance criteria. So we want to tell you guys, thank you. And thank you for Matt to come on our show and share all of these tidbits of information with us and to all of our listeners. Stay credentialed. Shannon, that was a lot of tea, honey.

[01:05:42] But have they subscribed yet to hear it next week on all of these platforms? Please subscribe, like, and follow us.